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No Good Options: Why the war on Iran will fail

Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:25 PM EDT
world-news, news, iran, israel, military, war, terrorism, attack, hezbollah, uranium, enrichment, clarke, richard-perle, perle, richard-clarke, gardiner, sam-gardiner
By evano
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On Friday, April 14, the CNN program, "Your World Today" had as a guest Retired US Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner, speaking about US options in Iran. Gardiner, a former lecturer in military strategy at the National War College, has specialized in war games focusing on decision-making at the Presidential advisor level.

Speaking about military options towards the Iranian nuclear threat, Gardiner said, "I think the decision has been made and military operations are under way." When asked to explain why, he pointed to the recent New Yorker article by Seymour Hersh as one reason -- indicating that Hersh's unnamed source is known to the New Yorker's editors who will have verified that he made the statement. He continued:

...the Iranians have been saying American military troops are in there, have been saying it for almost a year. I was in Berlin two weeks ago, sat next to the ambassador, the Iranian ambassador to the IAEA. And I said, "Hey, I hear you're accusing Americans of being in there operating with some of the units that have shot up revolution guard units."

He said, quite frankly, "Yes, we know they are. We've captured some of the units, and they've confessed to working with the Americans."

The evidence is mounting that that decision has already been made, and I don't know that the other part of that has been completed, that there has been any congressional approval to do this.

My view of the plan is, there is this period in which some kinds of ground troops will operate inside Iran, and then what we're talking about is the second part, which is this air strike.

This is the same pattern used by the military in our operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. CIA and Special Operations Forces were first on the ground in Afghanistan, gathering intelligence, making contacts with opposition parties and providing targeting information for airstrikes. In Iraq, there were reports that Special Forces and CIA were operating inside Iraq as early as August of 2002, three months before the Congressional Authorization to Use Military Force, and seven months before the war officially began.

While planning and preparation are vital to the success of a military campaign, the similarity to our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to indicate that we are approaching this potential conflict in a manner that may not be appropriate to this situation. Iran has four times the land area and three times the population of Iraq. It has missile technology capable of delivering a chemical, biological or nuclear warhead as far as southern Europe or Western India. It is also much further along in its nuclear weapons development program than Iraq was in 1981 when Israel destroyed the French-built Osirak reactor outside of Baghdad. All indications are that Iran has learned from the action against Osirak and has both scattered and hardened its nuclear development facilities.

Although it has discussed plans to do so, Israel is unlikely to undertake a mission against Iran similar to the Osirak mission due to the much longer distance to Iran and the necessity of traversing either Saudi Arabian airspace or Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi airspace. Another big difference is that Osirak was one target, while Iran has 14-20 nuclear development facilities. During the 1981 raid against Osirak, Israeli fighters flew over Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis have much more sophisticated air defenses today, including AWACS planes purchased from the US in late 1981. If Israel were to fly over Iraqi airspace, that would indicate to Iran and the rest of the world US complicity and approval in the attack, therefore the US is most likely putting great pressure on Israel to stand down. In return for Israel's self-restraint, the US has promised support, as Bush made explicit in Cleveland on March 20, 2006, when he said,

"I made it clear, and I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally Israel..."

Although, unlike in Iraq, it is clear that the case for Iranian possession of WMDs is beyond dispute, the problem with our current situation is that, as Gardiner showed in a war game he designed and ran for The Atlantic magazine in 2004, that there is no good scenario for an attack on Iran. Any attack on their nuclear facilities would certainly spark reprisal actions which could cause great difficulties for us and our allies. Our forces in Iraq have benefited from Iran's lack of strong participation in the insurgency; were Iran to act, they could easily incite the Shi'ia in the relatively quiet southern part of the country, with whom they have strong cultural and religious ties. With the current price of oil over US$60 per barrel, any disruptions in the flow of oil could easily send the price up over US$100 per barrel. By blockading the Straits of Hormuz or curtailing their own flow of oil -- 4 million barrels per day -- Iran could easily wreak havoc on the US and world economies. Then there are the known ties between Iran and Hezbollah, as well as recently reported ties between Iran and al-Qaeda, and other reports which claim that Iranian groups are signing up potential martyrs for attacks against British and American interests worldwide. As Richard Clarke and Steven Simon, former counterterrorism coordinator and senior director for the NSC say in today's New York Times:

Iran could use its terrorist network to strike American targets around the world, including inside the United States. Iran has forces at its command that are far superior to anything Al Qaeda was ever able to field. The Lebanese terrorist organization Hezbollah has a global reach, and has served in the past as an instrument of Iran. We might hope that Hezbollah, now a political party, would decide that it has too much to lose by joining a war against the United States. But this would be a dangerous bet.

The discussions and plans for an attack against Iran, Gardiner believes, will, despite the experience in Iraq, call for regime change. The feasibility of such an action is near zero, due to many of the factors mentioned so far. But supporters and former members of the government seem not to have learned anything from the difficulties faced in Iraq due to too-optimistic planning. Richard Perle, leading neo-conservative and former chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board, said at the 2006 AIPAC Policy Council Middle East security roundtable discussion on March 5:

Those of you who see The Washington Post will have seen in the Washington Post a couple weeks ago a map laying out the critical facilities in Iran that are supporting their nuclear weapons program. I trust we know where we are. If we don't know where they are, what should we think about a diplomatic solution? So, either we know where they are, or we don't, and if we know where they are, let me tell you that with six or eight B-2 aircraft... those facilities could be eliminated in a single evening, and I hope we are making it clear to the Iranians and to our European allies and to others that if the choices between standing by and watching Iran become a nuclear weapon state, and the President commanding B-2 aircraft to eliminate those facilities, we will not hesitate to eliminate the facilities. Finally, when I say I hope it doesn't come to that, I hope that before that becomes necessary, we will see a regime change in Iran, and the best way to do that is to support the millions of Iranians who want to see the regime change. We haven't been doing it... it took a year from last year to get the announcement the other day that we're going to invest $75 million in supporting the opposition. It should be a lot more money and it should be spent with enthusiasm—not by a bureaucracy that's not eager to undertake the task.

The danger to our mission in Iraq, the danger to the safety of our people and institutions around the world, the likelihood of financial crisis if oil prices skyrocket, the danger of increased terrorism and instability in the Middle East and in Islamic enclaves around the world, the uncertainty about the number and position of likely targets -- all these factors make military action unwise. The probability that any such attack will increase Iran's resolve to rebuild its nuclear program quickly, more secretively, and with the intention to use it before it can be pre-empted again, makes military action not only unwise, but ultimately futile and self-defeating. At the end of his war game exercise in 2004, Gardiner distilled the lessons of the exercise into advice for the Administration, which he still subscribes to today:

When I finished the wargame for the Atlantic Monthly, I summarized what I had learned in the process. "After all the effort, I am left with two simple sentences for policymakers. You have no military solution for the issues of Iran. And you have to make diplomacy work." I have not changed my mind.

When US policymakers say the military option is on the table. I don't think it's rhetoric. I don't believe US policymakers understand the military option won't work.

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  • Public Discussion (60)
Shaun Dawson

Very good analysis of the current situation.

I personally believe that Iran is taunting the US and the West, knowing fully well that, for the moment, they (The Iranians) are in a comfortable position. As indicated in the article it would be in nobody's best interest to use military force against Iran. Taking the military option off the table leaves only diplomacy which hasn't changed the resolve of the Iranians to do whatever they please.

  • 6 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:16 PM EDT
evano

That's exactly the delicate balance which is not this administration's strong point. They have to keep the option on the table so that Iran believes it is still a possibility, but they can't themselves be fooled by their own necessary bluster into believing that military action can be successful.

During the buildup to the Iraq war, President Bush requested the Authorization to Use Military Force, claiming that he had not decided to go to war, but needed to make Saddam believe that he wasn't bluffing. That was a reasonable request in order to give the President credibility with Saddam during diplomatic negotiations. Unfortunately, as later disclosures have shown, the Administration had already decided that war was inevitable and they no longer needed to sell it to the Congress, since they already had the approval they needed.

Many of the more valid criticisms of President Bush revolve around his inflexibility once he has made a decision, despite changed conditions and circumstances. The same hard-headedness is apparent in Secretary Rumsfeld, as demonstrated by the spate of criticism directed at him by senior military officers. I hope they have learned from the problems in Iraq because that war will be a "cakewalk" compared to a war with Iran.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:55 PM EDT
Reply
Ryan51

Agreed, however the Israelis might just launch a preemptive strike in hopes of dragging the US.

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:46 PM EDT
insert_name_here

I wouldn't be surprised. (Well, I would be surprised, but not THAT surprised).

Iran poses the largest threat to Israel, mostly because Iran couldn't hit the US, Europe, Africa and the rest of the Mideast haven't done anything to piss of Iran. Also because Ahmadinejad (sp?) is always ranting about wiping Israel off the map. I would expect Olmert (Israeli PM) to strike Iran to prove he is a worthy successor to Sharon

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:54 PM EDT
evano

I think there is a lot of temptation on Israel's part to launch a pre-emptive strike but I think they also realize that the penalty for anything but total success would be a devastating reprisal. If Israel did not destroy all the scattered and hardened nuclear facilities plus all the missile sites, they can be certain that some of the Iranian's long-range missiles -- possibly loaded with chemical agents -- will be quickly heading for Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The countries whose airspace they illegally traversed will be justified in considering the trespass as a casus belli, the Muslim world will be outraged to such an extent that the cartoon riots will look like a child's temper tantrum, Europe will quickly condemn the action and may choose to remain completely on the sidelines when the US asks for a coalition, and the Israeli government will have burned some bridges with the US and its people -- their most loyal allies -- by dragging us into something we have not had a chance to fully prepare for. I don't doubt they have plans, but I also think that they will refrain at our request... for now.

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:07 PM EDT
mckone

Evano, you touch on something particularly significant with your comment

Europe will quickly condemn the action and may choose to remain completely on the sidelines when the US asks for a coalition

It seems that if we fight - at least in the preemptive fashion which we have in Iraq and may in Iran - then we fight alone. What's makes me more scared is that the oil-rich nations in the middle east seem willing to loosely ally with one another behind a common hatred for the western invaders.

One of the defining features of any good-guy/bad-guy designation is that the bad guy usually has less friends...

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:58 AM EDT
Reply
Edward Sebastian

I was sitting down to write an article detailing the Iranian and American strategic positions at this time and the possible outcomes. You beat me to it and did an excellent job at it!

I would request of you one thing. Yes, Iran has a comfortable position and bunker busting their facilities (even if we somehow got them all) would be the beginnings of only terrible consequences for the U.S., what solutions do you propose? Analysis is all well and good but is only useful when applied to possible outcomes or solutions.

Do you have a take on what the Americans should do or what would be a wise course? You certainly seem more than competent in the matter and I am eager to hear your opinions on this matter.

  • 6 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:14 PM EDT
Djehuty

Here here - it's a great article, evano.

It would be worth thinking through the consequences of such an attack. I'd make a couple of observations about that:

  • The consequences for the nuclear program in Iran are long term, it's not as if there's a serious risk of Iran using a nuke on anyone, or giving it to anyone, at the moment. If nuclear bunker busters were used on them they might love to strike back (eg vs. Israel) with a nuke but there's no feasable way to do it for a decade or so.
  • I've heard a lot of talk about Iranian sponsored Hezbollah fanatics attacking everywhere, but I think that misses the point - it won't be Iranian sponsored or not Iranian sponsored, it will be a general rise in the us vs. them temperature worldwide. Watch out for JI in Indonesia for example, and you name it everywhere else.
  • That rise in temperature will make the life of every pro US regime which has an Islamic population that much more difficult.

It all seems like a big downside, for a limited gain, and that's even with a conventional strike.

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:15 PM EDT
Smaran

That rise in temperature will make the life of every pro US regime which has an Islamic population that much more difficult.

You make a point there. I'm not too sure how right you might be though. I don't think it will make life difficult. As you might have already noticed, several non-Islamic Indian political parties were siding with their Islamic counterparts and not with "the west" after the cartoon incident. I think there's going to be a split in support. I personally won't support either side. I don't agree with any of this. Violence is wrong, no matter how, where and by who it is carried out.

  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:48 AM EDT
Djehuty

Violence is wrong, no matter how, where and by who it is carried out.

This is where I'm coming from. I believe violent solutions are almost never successful in the longer terms (pragmatism), but I have moral objections anyway (pacifism). I usually find myself arguing the former, though.

  • 1 vote
#4.2 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:56 PM EDT
Reply
harkonen

One thing that I think is perhaps missed in your this analysis is the fact that lack of confrontation will not solve the problems in Iran either. It IS a good analysis, its just that it is based on the assumption that if the US or Israel doesn't do anything that these threats are NOT going to be carried out regardless.

Over the next 10-15 years, the likelihood of oil hitting $100 is pretty high.

The likelihood of Iran further funding Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations is pretty much assured over the next 10-15 years.

Europe's ability to cope with middle east problems will continue to deteriorate over the next 10-15 years.

Iran will likely continue to contribute to Shia complications in Iraq.

Iran will still likely threaten oil supplies coming out of the Straits of Hormuz in the future depending on international conditions.

Iran and al-Qaeda going forward is an unknown .. but likely domestic support is likely going to continue.

Iran and Israel's relationship over the next 10-15 years is unlikely to see a turn around.

All in all, the things that you state as possible negative impacts derived from a military intervention are likely to come anyway (or continue anyway depending on one's point of view).

As a result, there are many that would see a military intervention as preemptive to almost guaranteed problems. Even if it could be said that these problems could be 10-15 years ahead of schedule .. though my opinion leans towards 5 years and less.

Perhaps the title to this article should be: "No Good Options: Why War With Iran Will Inevitably Be Disastrous"

  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:59 AM EDT
mckone

The inevitability of these results may well be true. You fail to mention though, the immediate loss of human life on both sides that would result from an attack in the next few days or weeks.

Given the choice of negative result 'A' or result 'A sooner plus lots of dead innocents and troops', I should hope we pick the former every time. That's not to say we shouldn't continue to try and find a way to avoid 'A' all together.

  • 1 vote
#5.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:14 PM EDT
harkonen

Easy words (figuratively speaking). I too would hope that it would be entirely avoidable. I am however quite doubtful that Iran will back down from ANY of their current behaviors .. regardless of the stance the US adopts in the end.

Though likely many recognize that every culture around the world exists as a result of dead innocents and troops.

    #5.2 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:25 PM EDT
    Reply
    I SPY

    The problem i have with this is the statement

    we will see a regime change in Iran, and the best way to do that is to support the millions of Iranians who want to see the regime change. We haven't been doing it... it took a year from last year to get the announcement the other day that we're going to invest $75 million in supporting the opposition.

    Here we have U.S diplomacy at work again. The U.S government has not learned the folly of placing bets on the outcome of conflicts. Here as always they will back a side in a bloody civil war in an attempt to get the state to adopt an American style Democratic system. If the civil war will not start of its own accord then it will get help. So far the U.S has utterly failed every time they have tried this to the point it is referred to as shotgun diplomacy. The record for the 20th century is grim ,so many examples but the important ones would be China and Taiwan, an act of political naivety beyond belief that has not yet come home to roost, Vietnam need i say more, and recently the failure to implement the U.S style system in Afghanistan, as it was necessary for King Muhammed Zâhir to return. One thing I am sure of is that anyone who touches that 75 million $ will be executed if they fall into government hands. The reason for this simple its called treason. So America will fail again because it seems the only way to achieve there goals is to have a bloody civil war (1861-1865.) where one side absolutely crushes the other permanently to achieve the necessary consensus to pass a document like the constitution.

    • 4 votes
    Reply#6 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:50 AM EDT
    Ugly Bastard

    You can't say that because launching a military strike on Iran is impractical, it is unwise.

    You leftists are always going on about the religious in the US and how they are a threat, not just to your values, but to the world at large.

    Well, imagine nukes in the hands of Pat Robinson. Do we all know what God whispers in Pat Robinson's ear? I don't.

    If Iran were a democracy, I wouldn't be that worried about them getting a nuke, but Iran isn't a democracy. Six religious wackos have complete control of Iran and it's military.

    Who knows what God will whisper in the ears of these ayotallahs.

    Iran is backing us into a corner. Launching a military strike on Iran is quickly becoming our only option.

    • 4 votes
    Reply#7 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:45 AM EDT
    Ryan Shoemaker

    Bush has said that God speaks to him, so one could argue that our nation is run by a religious wacko as well. Just a thought...

    In terms of solutions to this, I'm not sure there are any good ones. It would seem it isn't something we can allow to go unchecked, but at the other end of the options spectrum launching nuclear attacks on the facilities there doesn't really appear to be an appealing choice either. All roads in between and including those two merely seem to end up in the same place, with inflamed hatred of the US worldwide, the only apparent differences being the time scale involved and the speed at which the choice of weapons moves from suicide bombers to something far more deadly.

    This is truly a mess of enormous dimension, and I hope someone smarter than those playing the game now come forward with a path we've not yet seen.

    • 2 votes
    #7.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:32 AM EDT
    wintermute1

    I don't consider myself a leftist, but I will bite. If you can come up with a credible cost-benefit argument that we have a viable strategic plan for military victory against Iran that does not risk dramatically tilting the global war on terror against us then let's hear it.

    Right now the US Army is stretched due to commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq. Are you proposing a return to the draft to grow the regular forces to a size necessary to take on a country like Iran? In the Cold War we used to expand the number of nuclear weapons in our arsenal - partially to make up for shortfalls in personnel (compared to the Soviets). Do you want to use nuclear weapons against Iran because of the same personnel shortfall?

    If you don't want to do either of those things, isn't containment the only choice left? This would allow us to manage the political threat that Iran represents, while also seeking to deter them from undertaking actions that threaten our interests. A critical part of this deterrent is a willingness to take some risks with respect to preventing Iran from being able to close the Straits of Hormuz - and combat Iranian sponsorship of Shi'a extremists in Iraq. What is your preferred means of stabilizing Iraq in order to minimize Iranian leverage against us? Also, what would you have us do about Lebanese Hezbollah - and other Iranian-backed terrorist groups that could attack us here inside the United States or elsewhere in the World if we were to undertake military action?

    These are just a few of the questions that need to be answered by those who would rush to use force at a time when we are simply over-stretched militarily. Barry Posen had an OpEd in the NY Times recently that discussed the potential deterrence and threat management options for containing a nuclear-equipped Iran.

    Like it or not, we probably have little choice but to "think the unthinkable". How would we contain a nuclear-armed Iran? What posture (basing/political strategy etc.) should we adopt with respect to Iraq now and in the near term to make our strength more usable to constrain Iran?

    • 7 votes
    #7.2 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:37 PM EDT
    evano

    Ugly: Let's try and keep the "leftist/rightist" debate out of this one. Right now, I don't think positions have solidified on either side of the aisle, so let's just discuss it as Americans and other interested citizens of the world. So far, the Islamic government of Iran has spent the last 27 years focused specifically on their own country. With the exception of minor financial support for Hamas and Hezbollah, they have not made any great effort to export their revolution outside their own borders.

    It is arguable that they would have maintained that internal focus were it not for the US government's heightened rhetoric against them, the pre-emptive attack on Iraq, and the pressure they felt by the US presence on two of their long borders. Our military is powerful, but it is stretched thin and the situation in Iraq requires a great deal of attention to keep it from deteriorating completely. Diluting that attention by engaging in another military action against a much stronger enemy is foolish at a time when we have such a tenuous hold on one war as it is.

    • 3 votes
    #7.3 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:55 PM EDT
    I SPY

    wintermute1I suppose the

    credible cost-benefit

    is dependant on the amount of booty on offer.U.S. Patent laws in Iraq seem to be receiving a lot of attention.

      #7.4 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:36 PM EDT
      Reply
      Cassandra

      Well, there it is. Even here there are those who think we will have to go to war in Iran. And we are
      already overextended militarily. We are using huge numbers of reserve and national guard troops as
      it is. Maybe I am an isolationist, but it seems to me that our best role would be to pull out of the Middle
      East entirely, except to (hopefully) continue to do business with them, and let them have whatever kind
      of government they want. I know we have made commitments to Israel we have to keep, but we
      could limit that to helping them in defensive ways. Why does that part of the world have to become
      democratic? If that's what they want, they will fight for it themselves. If not, who are we to say ours
      is the only way? As has been remarked many times in many places, even "religious whackos" do not
      and cannot really want to use nuclear weapons. We will not give up ours, and they will not give up
      theirs, but why push them into a situation where they might use them? I don't understand why our
      government thinks it is our job to run the whole world.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#8 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:58 AM EDT
      CassandraDeleted
      evano

      Edward & Djehuty: Consequences and possible solutions are both important areas to explore. I'm still formulating my ideas and I will likely flesh this out in another article, but my basic take on US & world action towards Iran's becoming a nuclear power is: learn to accept it. The Iranians have the technology and the knowledge and they are not going to be able to un-learn what they know.

      They are bordered on one side by Iraq and on another by Afghanistan -- two states which are, for all intents and purposes, controlled by the US, the world's foremost nuclear power. They also share a border with Pakistan, another nuclear power, and Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, two former states of the Soviet Union which may have retained nuclear weapons, bases, laboratories or scientists after the collapse of Communism. They are also within easy missile range of Russia, China, India and Israel, and as the possessor of 10% of the world's known oil reserves and possibly 20% of natural gas reserves, they are potential targets in a resource war. From their point of view, a nuclear deterrent is necessary for their national security.

      As frightening as it was to live under, the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction kept the Cold War from turning hot for 40 years, and it will have the same effect in that region. By bringing Iran's nuclear program into the light of international scrutiny and treaties, we lessen the possibilities of their technology and materials being passed on to terrorist organizations -- the most dangerous outcome of an attack on their scientific infrastructure. Unlike war, recognition and regulation makes the world a little safer.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#10 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:09 AM EDT
      Edward Sebastian

      Learning to live with it cannot be an option, though, when they have promised to destroy Israel. Ahmadinejad is obviously not a rational person. I really don't think a Cold War situation is even plausible. It would be far more likely for Iran to blackmail the world and/or to use their power to make an attempt at uniting the East.

      • 3 votes
      #10.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:23 AM EDT
      harkonen

      Again, that's based on the assumption that any treaty and international scrutiny matters to them. You assume rationality on the part of Iran.

      Quoting Cassandra:

      As has been remarked many times in many places, even "religious whackos" do not
      and cannot really want to use nuclear weapons.

      Oh really? Why not? In regards to plenty of other wars, history does not hold this statement out to be true, with the exception of nuclear. Recognition and regulation by whom? Some could obviously say, that this is what the US is trying to do .. but that of course would be taken as threatening by many .. yes? However, the UN has recognized and regulated too .. and this has also been ignored .. yes?

      I applaud aversion to war. I really do. However, rather than working so hard to simply to oppose a war, why not work to prevent the causes? Why are there no protests going on world wide outside of Iranian embassies? Or other middle eastern countries embassies that support Iran? Likely, I don't even want to really know the answers to those questions....

      • 1 vote
      #10.2 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:37 AM EDT
      Edward Sebastian

      Ahmadinejad is obviously not a rational person.

      I don't assume rationality on their part at all. That's why I believe a Cold War situation is impossible.

      • 2 votes
      #10.3 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:52 AM EDT
      deto

      Learning to live with it cannot be an option, though, when they have promised to destroy Israel.

      But it is an option. At this point we have to seriously consider all options including a dealing with a nuclear Iran and also "pulling out" of the middle east. Israel might have to learn to live without the U.S. promising to back it up. That would certainly cause Israel to approach the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian question differently to protect their survival. Something has to give, and it may have to be Israel. If not, then we may have to make Israel the 51st state in order to get the American people behind the massive sacrifice necessary to protect it from a nuclear Iran.

      These are terrible solutions, but they have to be considered because all the other options are terrible too. Iran getting a nuke will change the world one way or another.

      • 2 votes
      #10.4 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:14 PM EDT
      evano

      Ahmedinejad is not rational -- at least not on the subject of Israel. But, the Iranian Constitution (an interesting document, to say the least) does not place control of the military in the President's hands. Instead, it is in the hands of the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini. It is an interesting contradiction that, despite his support for the destruction of Israel, Khameini has also issued a fatwa stating

      that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that Iran shall never acquire these weapons

      I would take an extremely skeptical view of any statement like that except when pronounced as a fatwa by such a high-ranking religious personage. Khameini's prestige and power behind this pronouncement give it a different level of importance and enforceability than a fatwa pronounced by the imam of the local mosque. I'm not sure how to reconcile this one.

      • 4 votes
      #10.5 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:24 PM EDT
      I SPY

      I think there are two possible outcomes.

      1 Russia will join forces with the U.S on the condition the U.S supports the Chechen conflict with troops (or more troops as the case may be.)

      2 The U.S stirs up support for a Muslim super state and the world steps in to stop the U.S, this threat is real as it would certainly be possible for China to freeze / Nationalize all U.S assets there and discontinue trade. The world could also boycott the U.S. dollar to add pressure before any further measures would be needed

      • 1 vote
      #10.6 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:26 PM EDT
      harkonen

      That fatwa though charming, doesn't make me feel better when Ahmedinejad discusses openly how his blue aura kept the UN representatives in rapture when he spoke.

      One would think then perhaps the Supreme Leader would perhaps evaluate that statement as a bit too zealous or not zealous enough?

      I admire religious zeal to a degree, but only until one hopes to impose that zeal on me, my family and friends. I feel that way in the US, and I feel that way abroad. Why is it that many within Iran feel as though the current administration there intends to take a shot at Israel .. do they not trust this fatwa either?

      • 1 vote
      #10.7 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:46 PM EDT
      Brad Farris

      Why is it that many within Iran feel as though the current administration there intends to take a shot at Israel ..

      harkonen, is there some Iran polling data available that supports this, or are you basing your statement on some other information?

      • 1 vote
      #10.8 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:54 PM EDT
      harkonen

      oh certainly not numbers .. but all it takes is a bit of reading to find references to that. Even if the statements are questionable.. do you think Iran would not take a shot at Iran if possible?

      Their presidents own words tends to indicate otherwise.

        #10.9 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:20 PM EDT
        Brad Farris

        It just seems like kind of an important bit of information to be left to speculation. I know some expatriate Iranians, and I've not heard that from them. As to your point about whether or not Iran would "take a shot" at Israel if possible, I'd say that the "if possible" part would be the sticking point. I don't think it's so much a matter of "if possible" as it is "if they would see it as being to their advantage." After all, Iran could "take a shot" at pretty much any time if they wished to. Of course, they'd have to use non-nuclear weapons for at least the next 10 years or so, but that leaves open quite a large range of possibilities, from suicide bombers to chemical and biological weapons. The fact that they have the capability of doing a great deal of damage to Israel, and that they have not chosen to do so can't really be ignored.

        • 1 vote
        #10.10 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:10 PM EDT
        harkonen

        Hezbollah should qualify as "if possible" I would imagine. So would suicide bombers .. implying that they have not used any thus far.

        I know of some expat Iranians too .. and they have good reason for being expats. Doing quite well too I might add.

        Again, assessing the situation in Iran as rational is naive. Stating: "if they would see it as being to their advantage" implies rational... and globally understood principles. Listen up to the globe .. not too many nations are getting warm and fuzzy with Iran over their current stance.

        What you are assuming is, that the reason they have not yet used chemical or biological weapons is that they behave somehow rationally. One can only wildly speculate to get to that point.

          #10.11 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:04 PM EDT
          Brad Farris

          harkonen, I'm sorry if I offended you there. I'm just trying to point out that, although Iran is clearly quite capable of hurting Israel, they have not done so. Your point seems to be that Iran will strike Israel as soon as it "is possible" (Quoting you: "do you think Iran would not take a shot at Iran if possible?"). It is possible for Iran to do so today. It was possible yesterday, and it will always be possible. Whether or not Iran has the capability of using nuclear weapons is completely different from what is possible. If Iran wishes to do great harm within the next 10 or so years, they will do it without having nuclear weapons.

          Also, I wasn't trying to get into any argument about who knows more Iranians. I was just saying that my Iranian friends haven't told me that they believe that the current administration in Iran intends to take a shot at Israel. Perhaps your friends have told you different. I'm sure it is possible for different people to have heard different things.

          • 1 vote
          #10.12 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:44 PM EDT
          evano

          Self-preservation doesn't require rationality. A smaller animal will often growl and nip and make all kinds of aggressive shows against a larger animal, but, even though it can't be said to have a rational mind, the smaller knows that to press the attack on the bigger is too dangerous.

          I think that Iran -- rational or not -- has to realize that a pre-emptive attack on Israel would be equivalent to national suicide. The US may be having difficulties in Iraq, but those problems have to do with attempting to control and occupy the country, and they say nothing about the full fury of which our military is capable. A reprisal strike on Iran would not require many boots on the ground, only our ships and subs and planes and missiles targeting every military and industrial site in the country. Those forces are mainly uninvolved in the Iraq conflict and I don't believe that Iran would have a chance against that kind of warfare. They may growl and boast and threaten, but angry as they may be, the nation of Iran is not going to be operating under the same frame of mind as a suicide bomber.

          • 1 vote
          #10.13 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:24 PM EDT
          harkonen

          Brad, no stress .. not offended.

          I am just trying to make it clear that Iran IS CURRENTLY hurting Israel and American interests already. Evano also mentioned al-Qaeda support in this article as further evidence of ongoing Iranian activities that demonstrate their intents and goals.

          Evano, though I certainly hope you are right about self-preservation. However, we can simply look throughout history to see nations whose leaders walked them into the fire with eyes wide open. The hard part, is some of those examples did not involve religious rhetoric or martyrdom complexes.

          Fingers crossed.

          • 1 vote
          #10.14 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:32 AM EDT
          Reply
          Modern Hobbes

          I just watched Fog of War again last weekend, and became truly petrified regarding the Iran situation after my second viewing of the film. For those who haven't seen it, let me cite three of Robert McNamara's "10 Lessons" from the documentary:
          Rationality will not save us.
          Belief and seeing are both often wrong.
          Never say never.

          Taking these three things in mind... and observing the recent events re: America and Iran... I've come to the conclusion that now might be a great time to take a long vacation from the good ole USA.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#11 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:26 AM EDT
          I SPY

          You can stay at my place until the world improves Hobbes

          • 2 votes
          #11.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:03 PM EDT
          Edward Sebastian

          Well, Iran can't actually nuke us. They haven't the capability.

          And I'm sticking around. I plan on defending my country.

          • 2 votes
          #11.2 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:08 PM EDT
          Reply
          estrauss

          Well, I do believe that regime change will dramatically reduce tension - regime change here in the U.S., that is.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#12 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:18 PM EDT
          harkonen

          Reduce America's tension or Iran's?

          And Hobbes:

          Rationality will not save us.
          Belief and seeing are both often wrong.
          Never say never.

          These are certainly good lessons .. however, they can learned from many perspectives. So assuming that there are safer places outside of the US .. could be a bit naive. One would have said not long ago that Nepal would be lovely ;)

          • 2 votes
          #12.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:40 PM EDT
          Reply
          Ugly Bastard

          If you want real news, watch 'The News Hour with Jim Lehrer' on PBS.

          He had this fellow on the other night who said that the most likely outcome is that Iran will give up its nuke program in exchange for a security guarantee from the US. This is in negotiation, more or less, now.

          If the US grants Iran a security guarantee, it means that the Iranian people will live in a religious tyranny for many years to come.

          We have already doomed the North Korean people to a living Hell by granting Dear Leader such a security guarantee.

            Reply#13 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:15 PM EDT
            slade

            Normally I would welcome this article and the resulting chatter with open arms, this is democracy and brainpower at its finest. Unfortunately we have a White House occupied by a messianic wacko who suffer from both hubris and dry-drunk dementia.

            Conclusion: without impeachment we are screwed!!!

              Reply#14 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:19 PM EDT
              Djehuty

              There is an assumption that Ahmedinejad is not rational - it may be true, but we are just not in a position to know this at the moment. I think we can assume that he is not a suicidal idiot. ("martyr brigades" don't prove he is, he's a politician not an impressionable 17 year old *frown*) So assume he has a reason for making his pronouncements. I heard Dr Michael Bothe describe these as "bellicose and unhelpful" which is pretty strong language for a diplomat and lawyer.

              These statements (we'll have nukes soon and Israel should be destroyed) play very well domestically, which is one angle. He has never admitted to working towards a bomb, but at the same time he has deliberately let everyone believe that it's important. Iran must feel pretty isolated by US influence (Pakistan, Central Asia, Turkey, Iraq!) But really he's in a weak position, in the sense that any agressive actions by Iran would legitimize an attack by the US, so he can talk big but he can't afford to do anything. Where I think Ahmedinejad makes a mistake is in judging US policy. I think the US is trying to Findlandize Iran, and all this bluster constitutes Iran's flawed strategy for resisting it.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#15 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:05 PM EDT
              evano

              I think we're on the same wavelength. I said pretty much the same thing about national suicide up above. The comparison to Finlandization is a good one, although it doesn't map exactly. Finland was negotiating between two great powers: one close by which it needed to keep good relations with, while the other was far away and unlikely to be capable of defending her. Today -- as they keep telling us -- there is only one superpower and no other nation which has intimated that it would even consider coming to Iran's aid. As long as they stay within their borders, maintaining their weapons for self-defense (and as long as the US doesn't turn out to be the irrational ones, pre-emptively attacking and completely changing the entire scenario) the equilibrium will be maintained and they will be able to survive and prosper. I think it is more akin to the relationship between Taiwan and China: as long as Taiwan doesn't do anything stupid like declare independence, I think the Chinese are likely to leave the situation as it has been. Once again, the US is the wild card here, with our vow to come to Taiwan's aid now somewhat uncertain.

              • 1 vote
              #15.1 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:43 PM EDT
              Djehuty

              Taiwan - yes exactly. The US may have the (I can't believe I'm saying this) sense to act like China, or not. Some recent comments by the administration are a worry.

              • 1 vote
              #15.2 - Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:01 PM EDT
              harkonen

              Djehuty,

              I actually agree with most of what you said, I just hate the word "assume". In this instance, I will equate that with hope.

              The one fault however, with the comparison to Taiwan .. which is bizarre considering the reality of that situation .. is that Taiwan is not funding terrorists to hit nearby nations.

              The problem is that I think so many folks want to believe that Iran is threatening without acting. That is Iran is currently only voicing opposition, while doing nothing aggressive more than in threats. This is obviously not the case. Evano illustrates that in his article.

              Iran consistently demonstrates its intent in many ways more than words, and will continue to, regardless of our hopes. Currently there is no deterrent it would seem.

              • 2 votes
              #15.3 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:21 AM EDT
              Djehuty

              "assume" is scary when we're talking bombs, yes :(

              • 1 vote
              #15.4 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:37 AM EDT
              Reply
              deto

              I seeded an OpEd by Amir Taheri, the former Executive Editor of Kayhan, Iran's largest daily newspaper, who demonstrates that Ahmadinejad is even crazier than he seems. According to Taheri, Ahmadinejad thinks he's one of the 36 "nails," appointed by the Hidden Iman to prevent the universe from falling apart. Ahmadinejad has claimed that he had hallucinations during his United Nations address last September when the "Hidden Imam drenched the place in a sweet light." Contrary to the idea that Iran is in a weak position, Ahmadinejad thinks he is in a great position to take on the West.

              The Iranians and Al-Qaeda think that once Bush is out of office, that America will resume what they view as our unwillingness to backup rhetoric with action. I'm afraid Bush thinks this as well, and will force the issue before he is out of office.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#16 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:15 AM EDT
              Smaran

              Very good analysis of the current situation.

              My thoughts exactly. Congratulations evano, you really did a good job here!

              Finally, when I say I hope it doesn't come to that, I hope that before that becomes necessary, we will see a regime change in Iran, and the best way to do that is to support the millions of Iranians who want to see the regime change.

              I know for a fact that there is a calling for a regime change to a democratic one, especially among the educated masses. The thing is, that I'm not sure if the educated masses are enough in number to tilt the scales. We face similar problems here in India with our democratic, but corrupt representatives. Have a look at the Iranian blogos, you will notice a widespread outcry for freedom and rights to expression.

              I still stand firmly by the opinion that the USA gathering some more of its allies (India, Israel) and attacking Iran is a ridiculous idea. Their forces are comparatively weak and their respect around the world pretty much shattered.

              They could support a rebellion in Iran and provide military protection to the rebels/protestors. Actually gathering armed forces and blowing up yet another country for oil (what else? where are the WMDs that were supposed to be in Iraq?) is just going to p*$$ off the world a bit more and increase the ammount of hatred people have for the USA to an extent that it might not be manageable anymore. It might even grow in India, where the number of Iranian immigrants is extremely high. There has always been a sense of mutual acceptance and co-existence when it comes to Iranians and Indians. Large racial groups in India including the Parsis (or Zorastrians), many Gujratis, northern Bhramins and Isllamic communities were once immigrants, who came from Iran (by force or will). I would hate to see Iran attacked, just like many other Indians. Iranian culture has had a huge influence on urban Indian society and it would be a bloody shame to see another few million civilians (yes civilians died in Iraq - get that!) die, because their government is developing nuclear arms. My country is developing nuclear arms and it's not part of the select few who are allowed to. We haven't signed the treaty. Yet, despite that, we're safe for now. I wonder how long it will last. After that will probably come Israel. Sure, I'm being imaginative and I'm exaggerating the USA's actions, but you never really know for sure. Who could have predicted, that all of this would happen.

              It's not just that, it's another war for God's sake! Bush2 is back to the Middle-East and rightly so, the world's cars and industries depend on that region. It's the ethics of that need to be questioned.

              I just want to warn our leaders, that it isn't going to end with the USA controlling Iran and its resources. No Sir! As evano has already said in this article, Iran's defenses are strong and they will retaliate. As an ally of the USA, I and many other citizens of my country would strongly oppose and discourage supporting them in this war. I've had enough. No more people should die. If there has to be a regime change, it has to be carried out peacefully and initiated by the outspoken citizens of Iran. We're here, we're supporting you. It's important that Iranians know that.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#17 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:53 AM EDT
              Shaun Dawson

              Evano, You hit the nail on the head with this statement:

              They are bordered on one side by Iraq and on another by Afghanistan -- two states which are, for all intents and purposes, controlled by the US, the world's foremost nuclear power. They also share a border with Pakistan, another nuclear power, and Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, two former states of the Soviet Union which may have retained nuclear weapons, bases, laboratories or scientists after the collapse of Communism. They are also within easy missile range of Russia, China, India and Israel,

              And your conclusion is just as valid:

              From their point of view, a nuclear deterrent is necessary for their national security.

              If we all just take a break for a moment from bashing Ahmedinejad and try to play Devil's Advocate and look at the geopolitical situation that Iran finds itself in, Iran is in a very vulnerable and precarious situation. They are surrounded by Super Powers and Quasi-Super Powers with nuclear armaments. They have very few friends in the region, and none they can depend on to back them up if a conflict broke out. They are not even Arab!

              The only commonality with most of the countries surrounding them is Religion (and even here there are many different sects and factions). They appeal to their Muslim Brothers with their verbal attacks on Israel. They also appeal to other Muslim States, that see the US and the West as having way too much influence in a region that does not belong to them, by standing up to the "Great Satan".

              It is not surprising that many in Iran see the development of a nuclear deterrent as viable way to "earn" the respect of their neighbors (who all seem to be very adequately armed themselves). Not so long ago Iran fought a pitched war with Saddam (when he had the backing of the US) over territory that they arguably controlled. They overthrew the Shah (also backed by the US) and now the US is back again this time with a very powerful army, right on their border, telling them what they can't do. Is it any wonder that Iran may be just a little paranoid?

              What if another war broke out in the region, for whatever reason, would Iran have the resources to defend itself against a host of very capable neighbours? By all reports Iran is still years away from developing a nuclear bomb, sure they have the technical know-how but they still don't have the resources or real estate to manufacture nuclear weapons on wide scale.

              What are their options? Sit back and let everyone tell them what they can't do?

              I am not trying to defend Iran's actions, I am just trying to see the other side of the picture. And I just keep coming back to the same conclusion......Iran is not going to listen to any nation that they see as a potential threat to their own security(who would anyway?). They will continue with their nuclear adventure and all the talking and sanctions in the world is not going to stop them!

              • 5 votes
              Reply#18 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:36 PM EDT
              mckone

              Wholehearted agreement here except one clarification:

              Iran is not going to listen to any nation that they see as a potential threat to their own security(who would anyway?).

              Iran won't and probably shouldn't listen to any threatening nation like the U.S. when we tell them that they cannot develop the capacity to defend themselves from us, absolutely. In general, though, I'd say it's more important to keep a close ear on a threatening country than a benign one.

              What's that saying? Keep your friends close...

              • 1 vote
              #18.1 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:42 PM EDT
              Smaran

              What's that saying? Keep your friends close...

              Good addition, mckone. Makes me wonder. Anyone think all of this recent cuddling with India and Pakistan is just a game? Because your government is never really on either side, just hopping about the two. I may be wrong here, but I think that the hopping is very automated and sometimes even ignores a better judgement.

              They are not even Arab!

              Thank you for the sensible comment Shaun. And it is true, they are not Arab. A lot of people outside "the middle east" don't get it that there are different cultures and folk in that one region. Everyone is not an Arab and everyone is not a muslim. And everyone is not a terrorist. The question should be: Who is actually a terrorist and not who isn't a terrorist.

              Saddam (when he had the backing of the US)

              Brings back memories, doesn't it? In the 90s he was a pal and now millions of innocent civilians have been slaughtered and blown apart by bombs to find the very same man. I love the USA.

              • 2 votes
              #18.2 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:12 AM EDT
              harkonen

              All the points here are fine .. sure Iran feels threatened. However, its not just the US saying Iran should not pursue a nuclear program. It is majority of the world that doesn't want Iran to have a nuclear program.

              Also, using the reasoning that Iran needs the capability to defend itself against its neighbors is absurd. What .. Iran worried about an Iraqi invasion again? Perhaps that well know warrior state Kuwait? Pakistan won't touch em .. as they worry about being weakened in the eyes of India.

              Saying that Iran has short man's complex .. (I would say Napoleonic .. but that implies more than size) doesn't make their current intentions tolerable. There are MANY countries that could use the same excuse .. but few as involved in international interventions that cause the death of many more than military targets.

                #18.3 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:57 AM EDT
                Brad Farris

                Saying that Iran has short man's complex .. (I would say Napoleonic .. but that implies more than size) doesn't make their current intentions tolerable. There are MANY countries that could use the same excuse .. but few as involved in international interventions that cause the death of many more than military targets.

                Interesting. Substituting "the current American administration" for "Iran" in the first sentence yields an equally valid point.

                • 2 votes
                #18.4 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:44 AM EDT
                Reply
                Shaun Dawson

                Simran

                Brings back memories, doesn't it? In the 90s he was a pal and now millions of innocent civilians have been slaughtered and blown apart by bombs to find the very same man.

                It sure does bring back memories and it has happened all over the world. Yesterday's friends quickly become today's enemies. I think Pakistan better be very careful, we only like them now because of Afghanistan.

                Everyone is not an Arab and everyone is not a muslim. And everyone is not a terrorist.

                This is so true and a lot us don't realize the complexity of the region. The US is just finding out now, that a lot of their assumptions about Iraq were so wrong and they are sitting on a powder keg that is waiting to explode at any minute. Defeating Saddam was easy but keeping the peace is proving to be very difficult.

                So, not satisfied with the farce that is Iraq, we want to start bossing Iran around. When will we learn to stop sticking our noses where they don't belong?

                • 1 vote
                Reply#19 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:10 AM EDT
                Smaran

                It better be soon. I don't like boasting about my government, because it has its many many flaws, but there's on thing I do respect. We don't meddle. Very little actually. The only real wars India's been pulled into are ones with countries on our northern border. Partially justifiable, if war is justifiable at all. With Pakistan it was because of Kashmir and with China because of Tibet.

                If you look at Tibet today, it's mere grimace of what it used to be. Every year hundreds of Tibetan children flee the country on their own (their parents actually send them off), through the mountains into India and then to Dharamshala, the region offered to the Dalai Lama as a refuge.

                • 1 vote
                #19.1 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:44 AM EDT
                Reply
                Anna Sebastian

                a comment way lagged behind: this is one of the few articles I printed out and took home for the weekend to chew it. result: great.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#20 - Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:17 PM EDT
                evano

                Aw, shux... :) Thanks, Anna.

                • 2 votes
                #20.1 - Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:28 PM EDT
                Reply
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